Συζήτηση:Οικογένεια νταλλε Κάρτσερι

θέλει ψάξιμο ακόμη. Υπάρχουν κενά και ανακολουθίες. --Focal ^Point 19:26, 7 Μαΐου 2013 (UTC)

Η κατάσταση έχει ως εξής:

Byzantina et Franco-Graeca: series altera : articles parus de 1935 à 1969, Raymundo J. Loenertz O. P., Casa de Velázquez, 1978, σελ. 142-143 (υποσημειώσεις) Εκεί χαρακτηριστικά είναι γραμμένο: «Ο Ch. Hopf (Chroniques greco-romanes : inedites ou peu connues avec notes et tables genealogiques Berlin, 1873, p. 479 tableau III) έφτιαξε γενεαλογικό δένδρο για τις οικογένειες Da Verona και Dalle Carceri όπου συγκεντρώνονται λάθη ... (αναφέρονται ενδεικτικά λάθη).... Μπροστά σε τέτοια χιονοστιβάδα λαθών, υπάρχει κίνδυνος να χάσει κανείς το κουράγιο του»

... αλλά εδώ έχουμε υπομονή, όπως είχε και ο κος Loenertz .... --Focal ^Point 20:07, 7 Μαΐου 2013 (UTC)

It seems indeed quite hopeless...Don't you think we should stick to the post-Loenertz reconstruction (followed by D. Jacoby and seemingly Setton) and abandon every Hopf and Hopf-derived reconstructions (i.e. Mas-Latrie in Revue de l'orient Latin, Bury and the website which are based upon their works)?--Phso2 (συζήτηση) 13:05, 8 Μαΐου 2013 (UTC)

Hi Phso2, I could not agree more, but I have a small problem: I do not have access to the post-Loenertz reconstruction (followed by D. Jacoby and seemingly Setton). The sentence I found from la Revue de l'orient Latin is coming from Google books in Snippet view. I would very much appreciate if you have any access, to send me a link, or ... send me an email. --Focal ^Point 11:03, 11 Μαΐου 2013 (UTC)

The article in "Revue de l'Orient latin" is in fact "Les Seigneurs tierciers de Négrepont", from fr:Louis de Mas Latrie. I can send it to you if you want (the text is downloadable on Gallica) but i don't think it were useful, because it is based on Hopf's work, and therefore full of innacuracies. There are family trees for the Da Verona and dalle Carceri in Loenertz' article p 180-181, with minor modification from Jacoby (concerning Alix dalle Carceri, wife of G Ghisi). I think we should take it as a basis, and discard older sources (Hopf, Mas Latrie, Schlumberger, J B Bury etc). I have modified the article on French WP accordingly.--Phso2 (συζήτηση) 09:01, 12 Μαΐου 2013 (UTC)

To give an example, Γουλιέλμος Β΄ ντα Βερόνα is based on Bury, which is based on Hopf. According to Loenertz, this man was not a triarch, and was not Marechal of Achaea nor the husband of Margaret of Passavas, but was the brother of the triarch Giberto II and had married a niece of G de Villehardouin, which lady became Marechale of Achaea after her second marriage with the Marechal, Jean de St Omer (by his first marriage with the said Margaret).--Phso2 (συζήτηση) 09:01, 12 Μαΐου 2013 (UTC)

Well, there is something that will clear up everything: Now that I have access to the family trees of Loenertz, I wil certainly follow them. However, up until today, Google books (english version) was giving me access to many pages, but not to the specific two pages 180, 181. In fact, even now, from the french version, I cannot see page 182. Your intervention helped me very much. I can now see the two pages with the family trees, so in a while I will review what is written here... Merci. --Focal ^Point 11:52, 12 Μαΐου 2013 (UTC)

OK, you're welcome. I think the accessibility has changed because a few months ago several page were missing. I think now the article is entirely readable, the page 182 is probably transitional.--Phso2 (συζήτηση) 13:23, 12 Μαΐου 2013 (UTC)

Και άλλα ερωτήματα

Ο Όθων ντε Σικόν παντρεύτηκε την Ανιές Γκίζι (όπως βρήκα εκεί) ή την Φελίζα νταλε Κάρτσερι (όπως βρήκα εδώ (The Journal of Hellenic Studies - Volume 7 - σελ. 323 [books.google.com/books?id=bl08AAAAMAAJ] 1971 "...Felisa dalle Carceri, Berta's younger sister, who had married Otho de Cicon, lord of Karystos ; Carintana, Marino's niece, and....")); --Focal ^Point 09:59, 18 Μαΐου 2013 (UTC). Αμφότερες οι πηγές, αρκετά καινούργιες και από μελετητές, όχι από αντιγραμμένα κείμενα ιστοσελίδων που δεν ξέρεις από που ήλθαν... Υπομονή... θα τη βρούμε την άκρη... --Focal ^Point 10:07, 18 Μαΐου 2013 (UTC)

The marriage with Felisa in JB Bury's article (1886 - 1971 is the reprint date) is based on Hopf. Loenertz has demonstrated after charts from the Ghisi family that the wife of Othon was an Agnes, sister (or half S) of Andrea and Gheremia G. --Phso2 (συζήτηση) 16:14, 19 Μαΐου 2013 (UTC)